Discussion:
P2P restriction laws in the news
(too old to reply)
David C. DiNucci
2004-07-17 11:27:34 UTC
Permalink
The "Almost FAQ" that I post at times here contains the phrase that one
challenge of distributed resource collectives to be discussed here is
"Evaluating and proposing mechanisms and policies for the protection of
intellectual property in an environment explicitly designed to
facilitate instant sharing."

The INDUCE act is one such proposal being made right now:
http://www.eff.org/IP/Apple_Complaint.php

-- Dave
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David C. DiNucci Elepar Tools for portable grid,
***@elepar.com http://www.elepar.com parallel, distributed, &
503-439-9431 Beaverton, OR 97006 peer-to-peer computing
cr88192
2004-07-17 12:43:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by David C. DiNucci
The "Almost FAQ" that I post at times here contains the phrase that one
challenge of distributed resource collectives to be discussed here is
"Evaluating and proposing mechanisms and policies for the protection of
intellectual property in an environment explicitly designed to
facilitate instant sharing."
http://www.eff.org/IP/Apple_Complaint.php
maybe the idea is that we can have p2p and distributed computing, just not
any form that allows transmission of information...

hell, im is safe so long as people refrain from adding file transfer to the
clients, and maybe they can add disclaimers, eg, to Jabber JEP's: 47, 65,
66, and especially 96 and 135...

lest the users, authors of the clients, authors of the servers, and server
admins all be subject to trial...
David C. DiNucci
2004-07-17 19:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by cr88192
Post by David C. DiNucci
http://www.eff.org/IP/Apple_Complaint.php
maybe the idea is that we can have p2p and distributed computing, just not
any form that allows transmission of information...
:-)
Post by cr88192
hell, im is safe so long as people refrain from adding file transfer to the
clients, and maybe they can add disclaimers, eg, to Jabber JEP's: 47, 65,
66, and especially 96 and 135...
I'm not at all convinced that IM is safe even under those conditions.
You seem to believe that it only refers to streams and/or files. The
operative question is whether "a reasonable person would find intent to
induce infringement". When the VCR (or for that matter, the internet)
was invented, "reasonable" people could definitely have found intent. So
conformance may have nothing to do with the technology or its use, but
what is considered reasonable at a point in time, based on the often
meager evidence available, e.g. regarding non-infringing revenue models.
I would claim that the internet itself "relied on infringement for its
commercial viability"--i.e. it was government supported, and *not*
commercially viable, using non-infringing revenue models--until (and
perhaps even since) the development of the web and eyeballs/advertising.
Since eyeballs generally don't even get involved in data being
transfered among distributed resource collectives (e.g. grids), and
other revenue models have not matured for them, the same argument could
be made there.

Taken to extreme, it seems to suggest that technologies to share
information are OK only if (a) there is a commercial revenue model
already established as part of their introduction, or (b) they are
government sponsored. I think the authors of the bill are imagining a
(c), that the technology can magically identify the sorts of information
that are OK to transfer from those that aren't, and block the latter.
Dream on.
Post by cr88192
lest the users, authors of the clients, authors of the servers, and server
admins all be subject to trial...
Shooting the messenger as well as the messager.

-- Dave
cr88192
2004-07-18 02:06:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by David C. DiNucci
Post by cr88192
Post by David C. DiNucci
http://www.eff.org/IP/Apple_Complaint.php
maybe the idea is that we can have p2p and distributed computing, just not
any form that allows transmission of information...
:-)
Post by cr88192
hell, im is safe so long as people refrain from adding file transfer to the
clients, and maybe they can add disclaimers, eg, to Jabber JEP's: 47, 65,
66, and especially 96 and 135...
I'm not at all convinced that IM is safe even under those conditions.
You seem to believe that it only refers to streams and/or files. The
operative question is whether "a reasonable person would find intent to
induce infringement". When the VCR (or for that matter, the internet)
was invented, "reasonable" people could definitely have found intent. So
conformance may have nothing to do with the technology or its use, but
what is considered reasonable at a point in time, based on the often
meager evidence available, e.g. regarding non-infringing revenue models.
I would claim that the internet itself "relied on infringement for its
commercial viability"--i.e. it was government supported, and *not*
commercially viable, using non-infringing revenue models--until (and
perhaps even since) the development of the web and eyeballs/advertising.
Since eyeballs generally don't even get involved in data being
transfered among distributed resource collectives (e.g. grids), and
other revenue models have not matured for them, the same argument could
be made there.
Taken to extreme, it seems to suggest that technologies to share
information are OK only if (a) there is a commercial revenue model
already established as part of their introduction, or (b) they are
government sponsored. I think the authors of the bill are imagining a
(c), that the technology can magically identify the sorts of information
that are OK to transfer from those that aren't, and block the latter.
Dream on.
this is even more scary...

I don't like the idea of he world turing into various cyberpunk cliche's...
(hmm, uber-insane copyright laws and large media companies controlling legal
stuff, and people holding religious-like views on technology, where have I
"seen" this one before?...).

hell, at least I can take comfort in the fact that a meta-virus transferred
via graphics to brainfrag the users is just stupid, or hell, maybe there was
one (goatse.cx, too bad I guess it went away though).

yes, the mafia can use the virus to brainfrag the minds of members who try
to take something home for themselves (taking away their l33t h4x0r/w4r3x0r
sk1llz). in which case they have to get someone else to run av on them, with
a timbomb set for them to have to use their skillz to avoid teh 3xpl0dx0r.

and what do they have to warez?, well, the laggy talking head of course...
the head is the future of cs and commerce...

or something.
Post by David C. DiNucci
Post by cr88192
lest the users, authors of the clients, authors of the servers, and server
admins all be subject to trial...
Shooting the messenger as well as the messager.
yep.


dunno, my thread was probably stupid.
it doesn't really go into any good theory or anything, just implementation
crap.
I don't know any good theory, just half-baked versions of other stuff and
how to go about implementing it.
Crosbie Fitch
2004-07-20 14:04:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by David C. DiNucci
The "Almost FAQ" that I post at times here contains the phrase that one
challenge of distributed resource collectives to be discussed here is
"Evaluating and proposing mechanisms and policies for the protection of
intellectual property in an environment explicitly designed to
facilitate instant sharing."
Alternatives that spring to mind are distributed systems that require either
the participants and/or the content to assert that the content may be freely
distributed.

Either the content is intrinsically freely distributable (open source or
creative commons), or the participants assume responsibility for content
they introduce (and culpability for unauthorised distribution).

It would be much simpler of course, if copyright was simply dissolved (at
least in the networked domain).

However, it would be a sad day if developers of distributed systems must
assume culpability for the copyright infringements of users of those
systems. Very sad, if the crime occurs simply in inducing infringement, by
dint of providing a mechanism that in a litigant's opinion induces.

If INDUCE is passed then the obvious consequence is that distributed systems
developers become anonymous.

One might imagine that a distributed system could require all participants
to share in bearing the costs of defending any one of them should any
copyright infringement occur, however, whilst that might protect those users
against claims of inducing infringement, the distributed system could still
'escape' into the wild and be used vicariously, thus the developers are
still liable for inducement.

In a way, the faster and more exhaustively that the copyright of all digital
content known to man is infringed, the sooner it is realised how ridiculous
it is to attempt to assert intellectual property rights over digital
content, and thus the sooner will come the day when copyright law is
dissolved and R&D of distributed systems is no longer considered inducement.

Unfortunately the new luddites like those of old consider themselves to have
the moral high ground. More unfortunately still, they also have colossal
lobbying and litigation budgets.

It's not going to be pretty.

P2P is digital terrorism: intellectual property theft, film & music piracy,
drugs & terrorism funding, porn & paedophilia, insurrection, military
strength processing/decryption resources, collaborative virus development
and distribution, etc.

Are you a known p2p developer? Are you, or have you ever, engaged in the
research or development of distributed systems? Do you know someone who is
or was?

After INDUCE, expect INTERN.
Richard L. Hamilton
2004-07-22 22:02:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crosbie Fitch
Post by David C. DiNucci
The "Almost FAQ" that I post at times here contains the phrase that one
challenge of distributed resource collectives to be discussed here is
"Evaluating and proposing mechanisms and policies for the protection of
intellectual property in an environment explicitly designed to
facilitate instant sharing."
Alternatives that spring to mind are distributed systems that require either
the participants and/or the content to assert that the content may be freely
distributed.
Either the content is intrinsically freely distributable (open source or
creative commons), or the participants assume responsibility for content
they introduce (and culpability for unauthorised distribution).
It would be much simpler of course, if copyright was simply dissolved (at
least in the networked domain).
Simpler, but too much agenda, and too wide consequences. _All_ data is
digital, if not yet, then in time. and in essence (quanta and all that).
All data is _not_ public domain, except in the sense that it all can be
regarded as a subsequence of an infinite random bitstream.

OTOH, copyright wasn't meant to be extended indefinitely; it was meant to
be a _limited_ grant, to help encourage creativity by providing a means
whereby it could be profitable.

And except for those (mostly younger) folks that are perfectly comfortable
with umpty-ump webcams all over their residence, most people like a little
privacy.

The problem areas are twofold, IMO:

* data that is somewhere between totally private and totally public

* financial interests of the distribution channels (record companies,
publishers, etc.)

Digital may mean that the latter becomes less of a problem as direct
distribution from the creator to the consumer, with very low overhead,
becomes possible, resulting in more $$ for the creator and so much less
spent by the consumer that there's less incentive to rip off the creator.
(not to say that ripping off distributors is justified - they do have to
front quite a bit of $$ to get something out there by traditional channels,
and sticking it to investors is no way to build an economy, create jobs,
etc.)

The first of those points is the most complicated and the least likely to
solve itself. All the different issues come into play, like ROI,
security (national, commercial, personal), societal standards, etc.

It's a balancing act, with lots of different interests pulling in
different directions. Any reasonable position should probably exclude
both the extreme of regarding all shared data as public domain _and_ the
extreme of remote control of hardware to ensure protected data stays
protected (or of the prior restraint of precluding data sharing systems
simply because they're capable of being abused).
Post by Crosbie Fitch
However, it would be a sad day if developers of distributed systems must
assume culpability for the copyright infringements of users of those
systems. Very sad, if the crime occurs simply in inducing infringement, by
dint of providing a mechanism that in a litigant's opinion induces.
If INDUCE is passed then the obvious consequence is that distributed systems
developers become anonymous.
One might imagine that a distributed system could require all participants
to share in bearing the costs of defending any one of them should any
copyright infringement occur, however, whilst that might protect those users
against claims of inducing infringement, the distributed system could still
'escape' into the wild and be used vicariously, thus the developers are
still liable for inducement.
In a way, the faster and more exhaustively that the copyright of all digital
content known to man is infringed, the sooner it is realised how ridiculous
it is to attempt to assert intellectual property rights over digital
content, and thus the sooner will come the day when copyright law is
dissolved and R&D of distributed systems is no longer considered inducement.
Unfortunately the new luddites like those of old consider themselves to have
the moral high ground. More unfortunately still, they also have colossal
lobbying and litigation budgets.
It's not going to be pretty.
P2P is digital terrorism: intellectual property theft, film & music piracy,
drugs & terrorism funding, porn & paedophilia, insurrection, military
strength processing/decryption resources, collaborative virus development
and distribution, etc.
Are you a known p2p developer? Are you, or have you ever, engaged in the
research or development of distributed systems? Do you know someone who is
or was?
After INDUCE, expect INTERN.
If that's the objective, then there'll always be some excuse. P2P, like
anything else, is a tool. Tools aren't moral (or immoral); that's up to
the people that use them. Setting up a P2P network shouldn't be a problem
in itself; the problem is what some folks use it for. The developers or
operators shouldn't be a problem unless they're knowingly conspiring with
those planning or engaging in some illegal use.

What if you have a sharing system where every peer, to be accepted into
the network, needs a site certificate, and every file to be introduced to it
must be signed by the introducing site? Then you at least have some
accountability. Each site could then have additional restrictions
(requiring validated individual signatures for no, some, or all data types,
etc.), and publicize its policy (which might also be a criteria for joining
different networks). There's plenty of choice as to the level of
accountability you want to require, the legal implications, etc.
(However, I'd be strongly opposed to requiring as a matter of law that
all sites require all data types to have individual signatures - that's
too close to the "mark of the Beast" scenario.)
--
mailto:***@smart.net http://www.smart.net/~rlhamil
David C. DiNucci
2004-07-23 06:54:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crosbie Fitch
Post by David C. DiNucci
The "Almost FAQ" that I post at times here contains the phrase that one
challenge of distributed resource collectives to be discussed here is
"Evaluating and proposing mechanisms and policies for the protection of
intellectual property in an environment explicitly designed to
facilitate instant sharing."
Alternatives that spring to mind are distributed systems that require either
the participants and/or the content to assert that the content may be freely
distributed.
That seems to assume that an anonymous or disguised participant could
not subversively assert it, and/or that copyrighted content could not be
subversively modified to assert it. Neither assumption sounds likely,
especially since it would be necessary to easily assert it for all of
the other "legal" material being transferred, and participants may very
well *want* to believe anyone claiming that protected material is
distributable. Of course, I may *want* to believe that counterfeit
currency in my wallet is legal tender, too, but if I'm given a reliable
tool to check with, it may be made illegal for me not to use it to
check. (It seems that the rules for unknowingly using counterfeit money
must also be complex.)

That suggests the more common approach, for content imbued with some
special difficult-to-remove trait or signature (e.g. digital watermark)
to *not* be freely distributable, or at least recognizable as
copyrighted upon distribution. However, with a filter or two (e.g. CAM
videos), or by piling extra watermarks onto original ones, slightly
degraded content can often be made distributable.
Post by Crosbie Fitch
Either the content is intrinsically freely distributable (open source or
creative commons), or the participants assume responsibility for content
they introduce (and culpability for unauthorised distribution).
It would be much simpler of course, if copyright was simply dissolved (at
least in the networked domain).
How would you propose to limit it to the networked domain? The digital
domain encompasses almost everything these days, and some fields are
slow to adopt digital forms (film distribution, e-books, etc.) precisely
due to fears of inability to preserve copyright there.
Post by Crosbie Fitch
In a way, the faster and more exhaustively that the copyright of all digital
content known to man is infringed, the sooner it is realised how ridiculous
it is to attempt to assert intellectual property rights over digital
content, and thus the sooner will come the day when copyright law is
dissolved and R&D of distributed systems is no longer considered inducement.
IMHO, even that may not really solve the problem. You could interpret
copyright as a red herring here, but a convenient one, to allow
governmental bodies to legislate the ability to track content and/or
participants. If digital copyright did not exist, they might need to
find some other justification, or maybe eventually come out of the
closet and admit that what they're really legislating against is
untrackable/untappable communication media. If so, maybe the whole
concept of decentralized communication is illegal--which might be a
little disconcerting to those developing such technologies for
productive uses. One could try to use 9/11 as a justification, but when
P2P is outlawed, only outlaws will use P2P...and maybe some Good Guys
could make some good use of it, too. (Then again, perhaps the government
assumes that all Good Guys are affiliated with the government.)
Post by Crosbie Fitch
P2P is digital terrorism: ...
It's often worth considering the black helicopter angle.

-- Dave
Crosbie Fitch
2004-07-23 10:58:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by David C. DiNucci
How would you propose to limit it to the networked domain? The digital
domain encompasses almost everything these days, and some fields are
slow to adopt digital forms (film distribution, e-books, etc.) precisely
due to fears of inability to preserve copyright there.
You'd say that a copy held within a storage device that is part of a
computer would not be infringing by itself, but for that depends upon where
the copy was obtained. It would be fine to send or receive it via a network,
but not via detached storage or physical media, e.g. burning a CD or
detaching a HDD and giving to someone.

So if someone copies a movie from a DVD and puts in on Kazaa, they are the
infringer. None of the other Kazaa users are either however much it gets
reshared. However, if any of them burn a DVD of it, then they are then also
infringing.

I just thought it might be a way to allow copyright to remain applicable in
the pre-internet domain it's used to, but to be inapplicable where it would
be bloody stupid to attempt to apply it.

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